Your argument is flawed on the get-go by the ASSUMPTION that is has to with risk/reward.

Can it not enter your tiny brains that it is just what the particular person LIKES DOING ?

Stop this idiotic argument and close this ump-teen hundreth Thread about this stupid supposition.

1) suicide ganks should cost enough compared to the value of the target to deter casual ganks, ganks should be generally reserved for high value loot pinatas. "Free KMs" is another issue - loss mails should be issued for Concordokken


I don't know any carebear who thinks that Eve should be 100% safe anywhere, the carebears I know are just sick and tired of having bullshit made up about them and constantly worrying about loosing a 200m isk hull to a 1 mil isk hull

i know how to tank a hulk, you can take out a "**** you tanked" hulk with a battlecruiser still.

What are you replying to? I don't see anything in the quote about stopping people from ganking miners..

When the miners tank properly it's not worth ganking it at all unless you do it for fun. The problem is most miners think they can throw on a couple of shield mods in the mid-slots & still keep their MLU's & cargo rigs.

Get your facts straights, insurance was nerfed because it was an outdated, exploitable and endless ISK faucet not because some carebears cried.

Yes, for 1 miner / whatever crying post there are 50 pro "PvPers" who keep spamming abusive drivel about the whole categories and try to convince that the game is their way or the highway.

It isnGÇÖt really hard, but I think there are customers that you can lose in a good way and thereGÇÖs customers that you can lose in a bad way. If people come in and fundamentally donGÇÖt like EVE Online, then I think that might be a good way of losing customers. EVE isnGÇÖt for everyone. I wish it was, but the reality is that there are some people who just enjoy playing another game more. And thatGÇÖs not really that bad.

I was about to say GÇ£HereGÇÖs a RubikGÇÖs cube, go f%$^ yourself,GÇ¥ because thatGÇÖs what we do with EVE Online.

EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.

If you pay attention, and youGÇÖve got your wits about you, you can avoid people coming in and ganking, a survival of the fittest kind of thing, and people are now able to actually make a much better living from mining because of things like Hulkageddon and Burn Jita, because minerals are more expensive.

the ship must be capable of fielding a decent tank

I don't particularly have a problem with them. I'd prefer it if they required a little more skill or the there was more uncertainty involved, but it's not exactly a top priority of mine no..

HTFU gankbear. shoot things that can shoot back like the rest of us do

@ Mallak ,

See this is something I see alot that does kind of irk me in some ways, I am a do all player, and once upon a time I was a miner.. yes, indeed I was a rock smasher.. your comment on fitting ships better for tanking, when you are mining.. is BS.. Have you tried fitting out a mining ship, and actually go mining for profit.. until recently, and maybe some points here and there during past cap wars mining wasn't a very profitable source of income as far as isk/hr goes that everyone so loves to talk about. In order to get the most you can to make a decent wage, YOU CAN NOT TANK IT UBER ELEETZ GODZ MODE.. battlehulks are the past, all a hulk does is mine.. not fit to tank against pvp, you can squeeze in some decent tank against rats.. but you are NOT going to make a good wage with a full tank anti gank hulk.. u might as well jut not undock. However your argument on quieter areas is a +1111 comment... Eve is a massive universe, gankers can not be everywhere, sure maybe you have to travel a few extra jumps to make a lil more on ore sales, but doing some recon of areas and looking for quiet yet not to far and secluded system to mine in goes a far way.

Not personally assaulting you on this, you were just the one to make the comment the billionth time to make me give my opinion.

P.S. fk mining anyway .. crap wait, I need my ship to make things go pew pew pop

either the nado sucked, he had good fleet boosts from somewhere, or wasnt making much isk and had nothing better to do?? whichever, good for him hehe

that will not save you, you can always be ganked, and always for less cost then your ship.. it's pointless to tank to avoid death by gank is all i'm sayin.. and your cutting into your isk making which is pretty low to begin with

The way this game is set up alot of people mission for a year or two before they feel they can be effective in any form of pvp.

Hate the game not the player

So anyways... 5 pages I there is barely anyone who actually responded to the questions. Is it because the real highsec dwellers simply adapted and are playing the game or because they do not exist?

I honestly expected something along the lines:

1. Losing a ship should happen under two circumstances: when I make a mistake (vs NPC or player) or when someone invest more effort into ganking me than I invested protecting myself (vs player).

2. I should make enough money in highsec to barely pay for a PLEX on a good month. It makes no sense to me if I could make more, because the price would just shift accordingly since 80% of EVE's player-base (and henceforth the biggest chunk of PLEX customers) is in highsec. This also keeps the higher profit areas of the game relevant. Think about it, if we all could make 1 bil profit a month in highsec with "casual" playing, how long would it take before the minimum price for a PLEX peaks just a little over one bil?

These are actually my personal answers to those questions.

I really don't believe it's roleplay. I'm guessing that, like any bullying, it's because there's a group of people seen as an easy target and bullying behaviour is rewarded with positive feedback from the bully's peer group. I also disagree with the word 'hate' here. Kimmie used the word 'derision', which I think is nearer the mark. If you find reason to look down on a person, it makes you feel more powerful. On top of that, theres a lot of positive feedback for those who identify with the anti-miner group. All in all, I'd imagine it's more to do with acceptance from others, which I guess is quite ironic.

EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.

If you pay attention, and youGÇÖve got your wits about you, you can avoid people coming in and ganking, a survival of the fittest kind of thing, and people are now able to actually make a much better living from mining because of things like Hulkageddon and Burn Jita, because minerals are more expensive.

Acceptable risk is 1/100 getting ganked. Right now its much higher than that.

Christ, again? You posted the same thing to something I wrote the other day as well. It was about as relevant then as it is now. That is, not very.

Eve can be as cold, dark, harsh and whatever as you want - but the gameworld of Eve is not the same as it's community. There is nothing contradictory about a warm, friendly community existing in a cold, harsh environment. There's nothing contradictory about gamers backstabbing and ganking each other in the game, while showing a bit of respect for each other on the forums.

So no, I don't think I'm confused about the nature of the game I play.

Last statistics check. It was like what, less than 15% in null, and another ~15% spread between low and w-space. I was surprised by those stats too, perhaps 70% would be more accurate.

Well if my analysis is wrong, what is the real ratio? Is there a snapshot with only 10 mil+ characters only? That would certainly be more interesting.

Grinding ISK for hours with mining in a 0.5 or running lvl4 distribution or lvl3 combat missions to afford a decent ship, only to have said ship destroyed the instant I decide to venture into lowsec was only mildly entertaining for some time.
And don't even get me started on nullsec; I've died more times in the space of five hours than in the five months before, because seemingly EVERY. FNCKING. GATE. or STATION. has some psycho sitting outside, randomly killing EVERY. FNCKING. PLAYER. coming through.

Give me a place in low|null where I can play with (or against!) civilized people, and without having to join some Sperglord's corp, and without having to constantly check local or Dscan for Greater Internet Fnckwads and I will go there right away.

The reasonable amount of risk is an eye for an eye. If i risk a ship worth two billion, then i must either be able to earn those two billion before losing the ship to NPCs, or anyone willing to kill my ship should also jeopardize his own two billion to do so.

My favorite approach to that balance would be that, in case that you were ganked by a ****** worthless alt, you could identify an alt account from the same player who actually held assets worth as much as what you lose, and then pay for someone to blow assets from that account until his losses match (or outdo!) your own. An eye for an eye.

Feel free to re-read my post. Especially the part where it says

without having to constantly check local or Dscan

Because hisec carebears fly titans in swarms...

In a hulk ? not quite.


Haven't really added to this argument as its a rehash of a veritable cornucopia of other threads and nothing has been sorted.

The greifer, your tears are our target , null bear, nerf hi sec, we should shoot anything anywhere crowd, want WOT in space

The hi sec carebear, miner, industrialist, mission runner, and peeps who want balance and a place for all in EvE whatever there motivation.

Personally I think there is room for both, but they are never going to agree.

Your are never gonna reconcile those 2 sides.



Tal

You fail again. Hulk still costs ~300 million ISK. All it takes to gank tanked Hulk in 0.5 is two Catalysts (~30 million ISK). How is it possible to make it so that gank costs more than Hulk is worth?

Some players seem to forget that not all gankers do if for profit.

Lol, that's 6000% over Orca's PG before any PG mods or implants.

[Edit]
On a side note, @Pipa Porto; to further clarify my earlier post - I draw a clear line between 'justified in-character player-versus-player-combat' and 'indiscriminate random player killing'.
While the former is a very welcome facet of emergent gameplay, the latter is plain griefing, or ruining-the-other-guys'-day-just-for-the-sh!ts'n'giggles'.
Yes, I am aware that CCP hf. officialy sanctions grief play in Eve Online, but neither do I understand why - except as a PR ploy to attract the 'hardcore badass CoDkiddies' as future players - nor do I understand this as a 'we must'.

EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.

It isnGÇÖt really hard, but I think there are customers that you can lose in a good way and thereGÇÖs customers that you can lose in a bad way. If people come in and fundamentally donGÇÖt like EVE Online, then I think that might be a good way of losing customers. EVE isnGÇÖt for everyone. I wish it was, but the reality is that there are some people who just enjoy playing another game more. And thatGÇÖs not really that bad.

You can gank tanked Hulk with two characters in 0.5 space. You don't need 6.

How, you ask. I've heard that most gankers don't do it for profit. They do it because they can do it.

Show me 110k EHP Hulk tank.

Are you real? Your craptastic hulk fits neuter any kind of income.

It's vastly better to have a "decent" tank hulk that will die to 3 catalysts but will yield 30% more a day than your horripilant fit that only serves as bait.

Getting ganked 5 times a year but making 15B > zero ganks but making 10B.

Show me combat pilot that is ready sit in belt doing nothing when even running sites in hisec would be more productive.

Even overheated it only has 35k buffer against blasters.
Switch to 4 Tornadoes and Hulk is history.

Why would you use Antimatter?



It can be done. Seriously, how many miners do you see there with logi repping them?

Why I should use that implant just to get your stupid tank to fit if I don't need that implant with any other ship I fly?



Easily with 2x Talos with T2 guns and mods in 0.5.

With your fail tank fit it's 38,7k EHP against Void, not 120k.

The point is, this is not the 11000th shoddy "miners should die" thread.

Between you and Tippia you manage to go offtopic and turn every thread in the same drivel, the same tired setups, the same pointless theorycraft of stuff neither miners nor gankers do.

BTW I have tried one of these setups posted in a previous thread: it's so ridicolous it takes longer to be able to use it than to get effective with a faction fit tier 2 battleship.

Since you and Drop are experts of ganking and killing: how many logi pilots you know would spend hours protecting miners in HISEC just because there's 0.00002% chance that someone shoots that Hulk. I know you null people protect your bo... miners with supers, but is there really logi pilots who would do it in HISEC.

Yeah, putting 100+ million ISK navy MAPC into Hulk is very good idea...



Yeah, in nullsec. But we are talking about hisec in this thread.

Yes, you did. "Same tank" + "without implants". Only way to get "true" from that is to replace T2 MAPC with Navy MAPC.

Using metal 4 suitcase (around 16 million) is very good idea... Not!

I know right ...

* Miners have the whole zone to themselves and can dock on the rare occasion that someone new shows up in Local.
* Would be jihadists have all the time they want, under the protection of CONCORD, to seek out the juiciest target and pick the best time to attack.

Fascinating.

Not in hisec. Haven't seen any. Where are all the ads?



Rens says: 49,4 million.

You should check it again.
Rens VI - Moon 8 - Brutor Tribe Treasury (0.8) 49,439,999.22 1

Not for long. That's started to change already.

Not my problem if you don't know how market works.

And again: where are those logi pilots who can sit on belt doing nothing for hours and are happy when they get paid by stupid miners.

But if that logi pilot is alt of ganker? How can I know that?

Corpmates only log in to change skill queue and my only RR skilled character is my Guardian/Hulk pilot.

One of them is pretty much locked to science skills for a very long time. And my third character hates Caldari ships and people.

So, you're suggesting that I should remap one of my characters from int/mem to per/will just becaus of this?

There must be something wrong in my Hulk because gankers usually leave belt after scanning(?) and I don't see them for very long time. If they warp later to belt I'm on they warp away fast if I'm the only one on that belt.

No, I'm just a stupid miner who is a bit paranoid and got obsessed with tanking exhumers after losing one mining barge in w-space.

30k EHP with max skills is not a decent tank for a cruiser sized hull, what are you smoking?

No, the point is that you are NOT supposed to turn every thread in a Hulk debate.
Couldn't you please read the topic and stick to it?





Hey! And who cares! Are you going to "simply point out that Hulk blah blah" even in the "What is the Avatar above you is thinking" and "Like and get likes" threads next?

That's why I absolutely LOVE cloakies in 0.0 and local should be removed.

Local is an outdated mechanic that should NEVER make into a PvP game.
As for cloakers getting power removed, you are seriously wrong. If anything, they'd become invaluable gates watching tools.

LOL u and all u griefin buddies are the redundant ones. Tell me how you can really think that gankin a T1/T2 fitted hulk with a a few Tier 3 BC's can be profitable? You are griefers, plain and simple and as such should be perma banned. There is absolutely no profit in ganking hulks with tier 3 bc's. Therefore it IS griefing.

And don't bother either Porto. You are a Goon disguised as a ugly girl, or in your other self, Mussolini's fatter brother.

"Asking to please do not derail" is well different than screaming. But I see you just can't write something that won't aggress somebody else, eh?

Right....and U went straight from the Goons arch enemy corp to Sunshine and Lollipops? And now all u do is talk about how cool ganking is. Keeps the pubbies happy right? Where u hidng Lady Skank and her alt?

This place is freakin hilarious. Porto the wannabe Mussolini and Tippia the spy giving anti-ganking advice.

It's Ok Porto.

Like Mussolimi, u 2 faced mofo's all get hung in the end.

I plan to attend yours, hanging that is. In game of course. The good thing u can look forward 2 is the f fact that you will, after all the money u have invested, finally be well hung. Should make Tippia happy.

EVE has a lot more appeal than just PVP. Trying to say it's only a PVP game is doing a disservice to everyone that enjoys mining, PVE, the economy, exploration, or whatever else they like. The game can support all kinds of playstyles without forcing someone to do something they don't like.

Fine, so they're frigates, and thus tank outstandingly well for their classGǪ

Incursus:
Low Slots 2
Med Slots 3
High Slots 3

Hulk:
Low Slots 2
Med Slots 4
High Slots 3

No, you're the one who compares ship sizes only with sig radius. So, therefore Drake isn't battlecruiser. More like capital and shouldn't be allowed in hisec.

So, you want to use it untanked in combat? Sorry baby, but even PVE would be quite difficult with that.

One.

So, how do you put three cruiser sized Hulks into Orca's SMB? I'm sure CCP would like to know about this exploit.
I know I can put three cruisers into SMB, but I can only put two Hulks into it before available space runs out.

You claim it's cruiser sized. Let's use Arbitrator in this example because it's well known T1 cruiser hull.

Orca's SMB: 400k m3
Arbitrator: 120k m3
3 * 120k = 360k m3

400k m3 > 360k m3

Try again, troll.

Hulk is tech 2 ship. It has tech 2 resists. You should compare it to tech 2 cruisers.

Devoter for example can easily reach 100k with just T1/T2 modules.



Yeah, tanks like a cruiser? Two ships can destroy it before Concord spawns.

Is there a tech 2 mining cruiser?

- Hulk with 38,7k EHP
- 2x T2 fitted Talos
- No logis

Do you really think that Hulk could survive?

Do this:

- Undock
- Go to hisec
- Warp to all belts in 5 different systems
- Answer this question: how many logis you see?

And same goes for Port.

Hulk fit you posted earlier has 38,7k EHP
Amount of damage two Taloses can put out within 20 seconds (according to your suspicious research): 72880

38700 < 72880

Try again.

= CONCORD arrives = no Hulk kill.

(We're going to overlook for a moment that, no, the Scimi GÇö or more accurately, the Basilisk GÇö does not die if you do that.)

Yeah, 467 dps at 240 km isn't enough. Try again.

Who said you shoot Hulk with those Nagas? 'Cause I didn't.

[Basilisk, Basi]

Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
[Empty Med slot]

Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Light Shield Maintenance Bot II x5


Inherent Implants 'Squire' Engineering EG-606

Your fit doesn't have 80k EHP against Spike though...

Not even close with those rigs.

143k EHP with overheating?

Actually quite a few of them can tank over 80k damage over that 20 seconds it takes to Concord to spawn.

With logis!

If Hulk has over 100k EHP for 20 seconds with logistics support.
Most cruisers are quite close to that with logistics support.

You posted something different earlier:

And now you think RR is EHP...

No fleet bonuses and no suitcase if not mentioned:
Maller: 81.2k EHP, no implants
Navy Augoror: 101k EHP, no implants
Gila: 97.6k EHP, no implants
Devoter: 112k EHP, no implants
Phobos: 97.3k EHP, suitcase, no implants
Onyx: 106k EHP, no implants

I think that's 6 cruisers you two have been asking for.

You asked for cruisers. As far as I know all of those numbers I gave are for cruisers.



So now you want to change it to only T1 cruisers when I provided the numbers?

"Pyro" said something about it:

1822 dps / Talos
2 * 1822 = 3644 dps
Concord spawn time according to your suspicious research is 20 seconds in 0.5.
3644 * 20 = 72 880
Do you really think that's not enough?

Fair enough, I missed the 0.5 / 20s. On the other hand, that means we're talking about another 40k EHP, so no, it won't be enough.
Hell, just a single Basilisk will push the EHP barrier to 93k in 0.5 (only 2.3k DPS requiredGǪ).
You see, DPS can always be countered GÇö the only thing that assures destruction is alpha, and alpha costsGǪ

Show me 110k EHP Hulk tank.

Show me the Talos that can do 110k damage before a shield rep cycles.

Link. If you claim that I said "most T1 cruisers have 80k EHP" you post a link to back up your claim.

I would like to see this 80k+ EHP Covetor.

GǪand quoting parts of a conversation between that post and the previous one, liar. You immediately understood the meaning of the word then, liar, as shown by all your answers, so why are you lying about not understanding it now?

Or should we add GÇ£being able to readGÇ£ to your list-o'many-lies?

Ok, so you see me posting something about "T1 cruisers" when I did only have word "cruiser" mentioned in my posts. I never posted specifically about "T1 cruisers"...

Ever heard of timezones?

You asked for those...

What makes you think that T2/T3 cruisers aren't cruisers?

You haven't noticed that they all require racial cruiser skill at 5 and are under "Cruisers" category in game.

You just don't know how to bait with Big Brother.

If Hulk moves at 3/4 of max speed Orca can't keep up with it. Hulk also runs out of strip miner range in around 5 minutes (max range bonus form Orca's range link).

In reference to the OPs original post,

You ask what is an acceptable risk. Undocking a hulk that costs 200 million and having it blown up by a destroyer in less than 8 seconds by a ship that cost 20 million is not what I would call acceptable. A person can not tell when he will be attacked since he is not at war with any corp. He can not fight back at the time since a hulk has no weapons and it would cost him many millions to war dec the offender and pay for mercs who may or may not do a good job. It is honestly much safer to join a 0.0 alliance and mine now than it is to do it in empire space.

You also ask what affect this will have on the game. Ganking is going to attract a certain type of person. Honestly, who decides to join a game simply because he can get easy kills? Is that the type of person you want more of in Eve? On the other hand, if mining is made safer, would more people be willing to play knowing the industrial side had less risks than it does today? Would you want more of those types of people playing Eve?

Regardless of your other questions, think about it from the CCP CEOGÇÖs perspective. Do you think the games vision was for empire mining to be as risky as it is currently? Why are there police in empire space but not in low-sec or 0.0? Was empire space meant to be at least a bit safer than low and 0.0? Are there better ores to mine in low/null sec to make up for the risk of mining there? Does CCP really want the game to be so brutal that new players could lose their ships in empire at the drop of a hat?

I hadn't thought of it that way. If the missions had random spawns that did more damage, it could increase ship losses in highsec, and bring in some oh **** moments to missions. Currently they are pretty boring, and barely have any risk other than ninja looters.

It doesn't matter who does the killing to me, as long as there is some risk involved, otherwise it just turns in to another boring grind.

PS: I started doing level 4s right after I was able to fly a battleship, and was able to solo 90% of the missions with no problems at all. Either I'm really good at flying space ships, or the missions are just too **** easy.

Not tanking a Hulk, you say? That's a very bad plan you have there.

I can see that happening.. every other MMO I've played always has impossible areas that get put on "farm status" after a little while.

Honestly, I think highsec is fine the way it is. You're not going to get AI that's as good as an actual player.

There are still some decent pirates out there that will convo and sometimes offer tips on things you could have done differently. Even had a ninja looter contract my wreckage and mission loot to me after talking for a bit.

Some people take a ship loss WAY too serious, and fly off the handle like a lunatic.

I wouldn't mind random PvP when I'm missioning, exploring, ect. What I do mind is having a ship that's not setup for PvP being unable to effectively fight back when I get jumped in low sec. Ganking is fine and all, but having a real opponent that's setup to fight back is the way to go for long term enjoyment.

My 2c: Change low sec rats to require PvP fits to fight them and reduce the number of pirates in low sec. When it comes to predatory creatures the ratio of prey to predators needs to be at least 10/1 if not 50/1. I'd suggest pirates not being allowed to use low sec gates (even in pods) when their sec status drops too far.

I use PvP fits while ratting all the time. It may not be as affective, but it works. I'm really not worried about maximizing my isk/hour though, I'd rather just have fun.

I wonder what eve was like before killboards. When pirates actually ransomed people and let them go, for the ISK, not for the stupid KM. Wish I could've been around back then.

I think i could be labeled as a "carebear" im running LVL 4's ATM.
As someone stated here before, many "carebears" do feel bullied, i mean other people shooting you, and then making fun of you for being angry, thats not very...kind. But dont get me wrong, that is what makes the game so awesome, people can do whatever they want, and all people try to get into conflicts, espeacially when they know they can handle it. And i dont mean only PVP-ers, look at the market, traders compete and even if they are in highsec there is risk for them.
I think there should be an area, something like a "no PVP area". You could be running missions, you could be mining, you could trade, but all these activities would be nerfed (CONCORD tax / debuffs like in incursion systems...). So that people can make enough for a PLEX and some spare change with casual playing (5-7 hours a week).

this topic came up in ts other day with rdn.. there are 2 main problems

1. high sec should mean 100% safe with sec status 1 and declining thereafter. 100% safe should include a system that helps newb players with maybe repping and maybe super dmging ships responding with in a couple secs instead of 10. these benefits should be less and response time more as sec status lowers.

2. this goes with number 1, risk vs reward is not in play in high sec. with these included security features reward should be lowered. lower level agents available and small roids and roids available based on sec status. a trade hub should by all means have the purest of protection while your outlying areas should be less protected

Now if this thread was actually about a real Suicide Gank, like 1/2 dozen Mercs in Battleships who spend weeks to months tracking a target, using Locator Agents and then scanning said target in system to hot drop and assassinate target in high security, then maybe it would be worth an answer.

Been there, which is why I brought it up. Now that's real Suicide Ganking.

IMO a single Destroyer killing a Hulk mining in high sec is just taking advantage of unbalanced game mechanics.

The same tools? HAH! A miner's tool is a tankless ship worth 400 million and which takes several months to fly, whereas a ganker's tool is a ship the noobs get from the tutorials for free and worth 2 million at most.

Of course, the miner can go sub-optimal and tank the Hulk with a hundred million iSK so it makes a bigger killmail once it meets a gang with four additional hooligans. And then they will have a laugh for the miner's pitiful effort to tank the Hulk.

In order to play his game, a miner puts on the table a giant bullseye worth many hours of his life, whereas gankers put nothing worthy on the table. So, "same tools" my ass.

I never advocated for the nerf of suicide ganking. What I advocate is a buff to mining ships pertaining to their defensive attributes to bring them more in balance with the recent buff to Destroyers damage attributes.

Actually, since Hulkagedden is now a constant event and is paying all suicide gankers for mining ships destroyed, you're asking a loaded question.

In my opinion the only 'honorable' suicide gankers are paid Mercs who spend time (days, weeks, months) tracking a target, using locator agents and scanning or camping a station resulting in a stealth hot drop and assassination of target in high security.

OMG, you gotta be kidding. Talk about clutching at straws.

If you really think people are going to buy that load of snake oil,

1. Always spawn concord to another belt.
2. Every ganker after the first gets 3 seconds; concord kills 1 at a time.
2. Its about 2 mil or so for the t1's, and you get an average of 20 mil a kill.

He might, if he were, for example, a paranoid schizophrenic.

That can still be alpha'd, every time. For less than the average drop. Period. Saying "it's aproaching not being profitable" is just another way of saying "profitable".

Also, you do realize I said I was salvaging/looting? That makes a huge difference.

Still no faction loot tho.

Mining in HS is my equivalent of a trip down to the river to go fishing. I can sit back, crack a beer, and relax. Just like with fishing, I won't make much profit. For fishing I get dinner for a couple nights, for mining I get a few million ISK.

Given that comparison, I want the risk to be minimal. Belt rats are the equivalent of losing a bobber, or fishing up a piece of junk. Those events are annoying, but accepted parts of fishing. Ganking is the equivalent of some random knob paddling up and sledgehammering your boat. This isn't something that happens when I go fishing to relax, and it isn't something that should happen when I go mining to relax.



Profit doesn't matter; I'm relaxing and fishing, not going to work. If I spend a bunch of money (ISK) and upgrade to a commercial fishing trawler (Hulk) I'd like for that to at least pay my rent for the month (PLEX). Having spent that much money it becomes a job, something that I have to work at. Given that it becomes a job, it should also cover other expenses if I spend enough time at it.

I love this thread

Force/reprisals will in most cases not end in good.

Anyone who clings to the historically untrue GÇö and thoroughly immoral GÇö doctrine that "violence never solves anything" I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms.

I misused the word "alpha".

There is no amount of tank that you can put on a hulk currently that will make it a waste of time to try and gank. It drops cargo, modules, and salvage. If you went out and ganked 10 hulks with 10 dessies, and salvaged and looted everything, you would have more money than you started with.

Not including the "bounty".

I can. Maybe you can't. You are probably just inserting the words "the same" in front of "10 dessies."

If the hulks are tanked as much as you can tank a hulk, they will die every time. The more you tank them, the more the module drops will be worth.

Once upon a time, maybe in winter of 2008, I was told on these very forums that you could escape hulk ganks if you did any number of things. I added up the math, and found out that was a line of bullshit. As I said earlier in the thread, the only chance of survival in a gank is an error on the part of the ganker.

TL;DR
I got ganked by pro gankers, then the guys that taught them how to gank taught me how to gank. I have since done it many times, and have only ever failed when someone in the fleet made an error. I have never failed when solo (multiboxing). Math tells me I am correct, expereience both being ganked and ganking tells me I am correct. People on the forums are telling me I am wrong.

So goes the internet.

Is that people keep telling me that I literally cant do something I have already done.

The problem is that you keep changing the variables around and not taking into account what's actually being said.

At first, there was 10 dessies, which as Ruby pointed out removes any profitability from the deal. Now there's just 5 of them, which could make it profitable, but a horrible and very slow RoI. Already at 5, you're approaching unprofitability GÇö you get 1.5M ISK per pilot for 15 minutes' work. You might as well start belt ratting if that's the kind of money you're after, and you don't even have to change ships or system (if you're the kind to grind your sec status back up between attacks, that grind will be far more profitable than the gank). But even then, you skipped over the second part of his post:

GÇ£Tanking a Hulk to the gills will stop most ganks, and doesn't require any attention, but some successful ganks will happen.
Tanking a Hulk with logistics [GǪ] will stop all reasonably sane ganksGǥ.

GǪand that's where you get the 60k EHP Hulk. It won't be in the form of buffer, though, but rather in the form of Gǣamount of EHP you need to deal before the ship blows upGǥ. Well, except that against blasters, it can quite easily be closer to 120k as shown earlier in the thread. Hell, at the profit levels you're looking at just with your 5 catalysts, I'm already close to categorising it as a not Gǣreasonably saneGǥ even without the logistics.

Oh, and if you look back in the thread, you'll have your fits. The beefiest one so far (unsupported) sits at a minimum of 38.7k EHP against blasters (more if you use kinetic-heavy ammo).

The BEST viable solution that actually works in practice is to:

- If the system shows more than 7-8 kills per day then switch it.
- Set personal / corporation standings to terrible when you see some guys doing a gank. Include alts.
- Not be totally AFK but check every some minutes that the above guys are not there.
- Never EVER mine at the belt arrival point. Surprised the honorable theorycrafter did not mention this fundamental tip.
- Fit enough tank to survive 1 - max 2 dessies. This will deter most of the casual gankers. More is overkill and will just kill your profit hard.
- If you are scared to lose ships go play another game. EvE is a game where ships are meant to pop, and you are meant to be smart enough to make more than enough ISK than what you lose when you get popped.
- In general avoid the "all skills to V + super implants" suggestions as they are as good as terrible Battleclinic fits. If I was a ganker I'd slobber at the thought somebody who went AFK 5 minutes would lose 1-2B in implants and would gank him at a loss just to see the tears.

Here you go. Mining since 3 years with all of *1* loss while having very decent yield ships and making 3-5B a month.

All because I'm "too lazy" to look through every KM I have on an exhumer, and run them through EFT to see which one has the highest EFT.

Like I said, I have a neutral alt, so I just passive scan the target first and fit for the hole. I call concord to another belt and get +6 seconds. I overheat. I count volleys, not DPS. I love how in Tippia math you only do 3k damage in a .8 system, but on the server you do 4600.

Funny thing, according to EFT, you could not possibly gank a mackinaw with 13kehp with only 2 destroyers. But its easy as hell once you understand the methodology. Done it many many times. It REALLY helps to have been on both sides of the fence also.

You are right, I never ganked a 38kehp ship with any amount of destroyers. But the 19k ones melt like butter with time for **** talk between them dying and concord killing me with only 3 destroyers. Again, EFT says its not possible, but that's what you get for EFT warrioring.

And big ups to S I L E N T Alliance for teaching me how to do this ****.

The whole theroycrafting started as soon as some jackass mentioned mining. This thread is about how much you should be able to make, and mining is not a part of that.

And bumping for the win, as mentioned previously. It thwarts aligning.

Right. Because it will convince "external influences" to buff the tank.

That said, the winter update will be interesting, since there's ships with more tank but less (asteroid) gank. Hah.

Soon, we will unironically be telling gankee-criers to "learn to Procurer"

You seem like you got invested by an Holy Duty to enlighten the masses.

If they can't even survive mining, let them dead. Plenty of more competent people out there to replace them, really.

It is most certainly impossible to tank a hulk to survive a gank, and there is no one who disagrees AND understands math.

The only disagreement is if it nets positive bankroll or not.

Amusing. If you give "us" what "we" want, we'll leave.

Uh, wait what.


Let's think about the opposite. Maybe they're actually masochists and/or can be pushed into a stockholm syndrome state. Like some renters and pets in certain areas of the map. Let's try to advertise being ganked as "freedom" or "liberty". That sounds good.

Gankers shall be referred to as "tank capacity inspectors". They should always, when rolling up, announce that a mandatory tank capacity check is being performed.

No. Without the logi and orca boosts you make plenty of money, easily enough to plex your accounts. That's my point. I have done it.

An orca scooping is a can flippers wet dream.

And while the orca boost + logi idea looks good to the naked eye, it comes out to 26 mil an hour in absolute perfect conditions. It might stop the gankers from making money, but now the tables are turned. One screw up on the defenders part and the gankers will get a killmail worthy of hanging on moms fridge.

Looks like someone doesn't know how aggression mechanics work in hisec. Do you know what happens when that Orca pilot loots from yellow wreck?

If killing Basi is so difficult then how nullbears are able do it in nullsec?

"Stealing from a Container or Wreck

When you attempt to take or move items from containers or wrecks in Empire Space, it may result in you being criminally flagged to other players. Whether you get criminally flagged and who you get criminally flagged to depends on who owns the container/wreck and whether, if you're not the owner, you have an implicit right to take from it. This criminal flag lasts for 15 minutes."

From same article.

Player who created the wreck owns it.

Who owns what, and when

Who gets ownership of containers/wrecks depends on the situation. The possible circumstances are as follows:

1) When an NPC is killed by a player, the player who did the most damage to it gets ownership of any loot containers that may drop and of the wreck left behind by that NPC.
2) When players are killed, any containers dropped from their ship are still owned by them. The same goes for the wreck that once was their ship.

And either way, you salvage in one cycle and flip the can.

Once the can is flipped, ask anyone from TEARS or a like corp how hard it is to kill an orca and basi.

You're just making **** up now. I already said I scan them with a neutral alt and look for the hole, multiple times.

You see what you want to see and live on the forums. I live in New Eden. You have stolen much too much of my time already. Goodbye. Have fun theorycrafting.

Learn to read and comprehend before you respond please. Tippia specifically said


Saying that you know what I do without observing it is the epitome of shitpoasting.

If you pay attention, and youGÇÖve got your wits about you, you can avoid people coming in and ganking, a survival of the fittest kind of thing, and people are now able to actually make a much better living from mining because of things like Hulkageddon and Burn Jita, because minerals are more expensive.

Risk vs. reward is unbalanced in hisec.

Suicide gankers should get huge rewards from suicide ganking. For example currently ganking tanked exhumers require gankers to take way too big risk to gank tanked exhumer. Should help gankers who like to gank exhumers.
Something like:
100 mil / exhumer.
25 mil / untanked T1 industrial.
1 bil / freighter.
etc.

No, CCP should implement that system.

It's to help gankers gank more ships. This is pure PvP game after all.

Are you saying that system would be bad for gankers?

Especially for gankers it would be great system.

No trap. You're forgeting this is PvP game.

More rewards for PvPers = good for economy.

Risk vs reward in hisec is unbalanced. Especially for gankers.

You have been preaching about it in this thread already.

Reward is too small for some gankers to take out tanked ships.

That means increased risk for ganker. As a ganker you should know that currently there's no way decrease that risk so that it matches rewards or increase rewards to match increased risk.

This will be bad after mining barges and exhumers get changed. Fewer easy targets for PvPers = bad for economy.

Really? They plan to remove tank from Hulk? Guess that system won't be needed then if 400M ship can be alpha'd with one Tornado or destroyed with one Catalyst for profit.

No free slots for any modules?

Only for those modules that come with ship (and will be required to build that ship):
3x ORE Strip Miner
1x ORE Survey Scanner
3x ORE Mining Laser Upgrade
2x Large Drone Mining Augmentor II

And as always ORE modules can be only received from ORE's LP store.

And of course everything drops when ship is destroyed.

Read the devblog.

discussion would go smoother if you both just got a room,

roleplay it out, one of you can be the mittari the other can be the he/she with the hat

up to you

"Best mining output" kinda means there's no way you can fit a tank.

Devblog clearly states that Hulk will have little to average EHP. Since it is cruiser "little to average EHP" means 10k-15k EHP. So only way to minimize risk as a miner is to use Procurer/Skiff.

"Best mining output" part from devblog.

You say it can be tanked to make profitable ganking impossible. Two T1 gank fit Catalysts can destroy it in 0.5 even whit maximum tank (15k EHP).

Have you ever build anything in EVE? Have you ever tried to get most of materials needed by yourself? If I use Skiff instead after the change I would need three Skiffs just to keep up with manufacturing.

Why do you gankers always think miners mine just to get isk selling that ore?

Actually, an anti-blaster Hulk fit (with maximum tank) can go up to 43k EHP with overheat. Just sayin.

What makes you think that logi, those ecm drones or maybe that high alpha/dps ship doesn't safe the Hulk if gankers show up?

Nope.

I've never said untanked Hulk can't be ganked.
I've never said tanked, solo Hulk can't be ganked.

well i have to say it when i was a new player was like 60,000 players on line most of the time all this was said back then too
now most of the time 25.000 to 35.000 at times any way you cut it players are not going to give you money to feed them to gankers in a game this old no one cares if you fix the game for more players to play are not .
they might sub and play if its fun if not no big deal i have to say it i told you so pve is big money .
upside is every 8 months i see what the game is up to so in 16 months only cost me $30.00

True but does not matter one bit to the guy that just got ganked in a cost-ineffective gank.

And as long as we have someone willing to finance ganks they can become cost effective.

This is so like taking a loss in the markets selling your items at a loss just because you want to get rid of that guy that is your competition. How often have you done that?